Because It Needs To Be Said, pt. 1
by David
We follow a number of blogs. We read most just because it is interesting to see what people are thinking, (no matter how goofy or outrageous) and go on to the next, based on the Great Apostle's pattern and instruction ( ICorinthians 5:12) of leaving all those outside the professing Church to God to judge. But those who profess Christianity we are responsible to deal with. For example, I read a blog by a guy who is a very thoughtful hedonist. He thinks the highest good for people is to experience pleasure. The thinking of most Americans is thoroughly hedonistic, of course, but they don't know it. This man, however, understands precisely what he believes, and he makes a good argument for the continued development of opioid psychotropic drugs, so people could just feel good all the time, without all the unpleasant side effects of the drugs now available. I disagree, but he's not my problem.
I'm saying the Church is commanded to discipline itself. This idea is obvious and inarguable throughout the New Testament Scriptures. So if people (particularly teachers) who call themselves Christians live a lifestyle which the Bible says is completely unacceptable in the Church, or if they teach ideas obviously and dangerously wrong, that is my problem. Yours, too, Brothers and Sisters, whether or not you have the courage to accept the responsibility.
One of the blogs we follow, mainly because the blogger is known to us, so it is of particular interest, is FEED YOUR STRENGTH. I would point your attention to the August 10 edition. Usually the subject of the blog is self-help or love yourself, and such. But the blogger, while identifying herself as an Evangelical Christian (at another time a "recovering Evangelical") is enthralled with the teachings of progressive, postmodern, heretical Christian teachers, notably Richard Rohr and Rob Bell, and regularly passes along their thinking for her readers.
A favorite theme in FEED YOUR STRENGTH is that it is wrong for any of us as God's people to disapprove or make a judgment regarding the beliefs or behaviors of another person. This position is wrong-headed and not Biblical on its face (please review our earlier writing on this subject), and now FEED YOUR STRENGTH is helping us make our point by carrying the argument to ridiculous extremes. Out of the Biblical record of David and Bathsheba and subsequent events she draws the conclusion that since God can make beauty from ashes (Isaiah 61:3), one must never disapprove of another's behavior. Let's think about that. . . and make some current comparisons.
Firstly, a personal story comes to mind which is not so current. I was once called to a pastoral position in a church which had been devastated by the behavior of the former pastor. The man had used his position of influence over the church families to find victims for his pedophilia. In fact, the remaining group was so traumatized they swore to one another to keep it all a secret, and I didn't even know what I was getting into. Now, when the story did come to light, what should my counsel have been to those families of young, injured boys? Now, now, we musn't disapprove?
Today, on a larger scale, human trafficking for the sex trades is a business estimated at 9.5 billion dollars in the USA alone, victimizing an estimated 300,000 children. Many professing Christians are involved in this tragedy. Should we disapprove, approve or stand aloof?
Otherwise. During 2010, about 1.6 million children ages 0 to 11 and 1.2 million children ages 12 to 17 lived in a household in which at least one member age 12 or older was the victim of violent crime during the year. Approve, disapprove or stand aloof?
I'm sitting a the keyboard this morning shaking my head at the absurdity of the position I'm arguing against. At the evil of it. Also a little in awe at how brilliantly insidious the Enemy is.
Let me draw your attention all the way back to David and Bathsheba. Let's pick up the story in 2 Samuel 12. In response to David's sinful behavior, did God approve, disapprove or stand aloof? In fact He sent His prophet Nathan to deliver one of the most intense judgments in recorded history. Recorded for US.We are asked in FEED YOUR STRENGTH to buy the twisted logic that since God does indeed bring beauty out of ashes for his people, therefore we should not disapprove of evil. I disagree with that teaching, and in doing so I stand firmly in the spirit of the Word of God, and with the clear revelation everywhere in the Book.
Since most of you reading these words have grown up in the American postmodern, postChristian culture, where nothing is considered absolutely wrong or absolutely right, where the idea that we must never judge the morality of anything sounds okay, I feel I must labor to simplify and clarify what I am trying to tell you. Let's try some questions.
In your group which calls itself Christian, which of the following is disapproved? abortion? casual sex? robbing the minimart? beating up gays? sleeping with your neighbor's wife? abandoning your family for another, more desirable mate? It would seem that, according to the logic espoused by FEED YOUR STRENGTH, none of these practices should be disapproved.
According to God and His Revelation (the Bible), all these practices, common and considered cool in American pop culture, ARE disapproved and condemned. When a Christian sister or brother blunders into one of these practices, it is our responsibility to pull him out.
Because It Needs To Be Said, pt. 2
by Libby
My life is very full; i have a two-month old and an almost-3-year-old, both rather high maintenance, and I really have time for little else. Even now the little one clings to my chest like a spider monkey while i try to type around him on a tiny laptop balanced on a Boppi, and I can smell that the the big one needs a diaper change, and all the diapers are still in the washing machine. But I feel strongly that yesterday's FEED YOUR STRENGTH needs to be answered, as it is running in the same vein as her August 10th post, and is dangerously misleading.
Let's start with a little background. When Paul sat down to pen the letters that are included in the Bible today, he wasn't sitting down with the intent to "write the Bible." He was writing to people in local churches, during a certain time and who were dealing with certain issues. He was writing to exhort and encourage individuals and church bodies that needed specific exhortation and encouragement. Thus, it is important to take into account the historical context of each letter and consider to whom Paul was writing and what issues they may have been struggling with at the time.
And here's another thing: when someone uses a few verses from a chapter to try to make a point, it is our responsibility to crack open the Bible and read the verses preceding and succeeding, probably just read the whole chapter, and ideally read the whole book. Because there are plenty of verses that, when taken out of context, can be used to say pretty much anything one might want them to say.
So let's briefly examine Romans 14, and see if we can't suss out where Paul was coming from and what he meant when he exhorted the Romans not to judge each other.
Since its inception, the Mosaic Law was the Jewish people's only connection to God. They had to follow rules upon rules in order to have any hope of salvation, they studied and memorized and rigidly lived by the Torah, and disobedience was unthinkable. Jesus' life, death, and resurrection changed everything. Everything. And this was extremely difficult for your average Jew to accept. We're talking about trying to cast aside thousands of years of indoctrination, and their entire way of life. And as time passed, some believers were able to throw off the old law and live easily in the new freedom that Christ's blood afforded them, and others not so much. Some really struggled with things like working on the Sabbath or eating meat that, under the old law, would be considered unclean. Understandable, I'd say.
So in Roman church at this time, this was causing some strife. Christians were being uppity and judgmental with each other about these things; and the truth of it is, these things were pretty much inconsequential. The Roman Christians were hurting each other and causing divisions over things that didn't matter anymore. Here Paul tells them (and us) that their hearts' intent and their desire to honor and glorify God are what really matter, and that they shouldn't be hateful and judgmental about things that hold no import in the Kingdom of God.
So to put this idea into a more current context, consider this: any number of Believers come out of a tradition that tells them that worship is best achieved through singing hymns, and contemporary worship music is lacivious and unholy. And on the other side are the Believers who say that hymns are archaic and boring, and contemporary worship music is more relevant and therefore more conducive for effective worship for Christians of today. And both sides feel very strongly about this, going so far as to condemn fellow Believers that don't see things they way that they do. But what Paul is basically saying here is, "It's all good, don't let this kind of thing tear you guys apart." And he's also saying that if contemporary music makes you feel lacivious and unholy, by all means don't listen to it! But don't condemn those who worship best when they can jump and dance and wave their hands in the air. Because it's all good if your heart is clean and God is glorified.
In verse 14, Paul says. "Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God." He is referrring to the inconsequential issues. But do you hear what he is NOT saying? He is NOT saying, "Whoever gets drunk at the bar every weekend does so for the Lord." He is NOT saying, "Whoever has sex with someone he or she is not married to does so to the Lord." He is not saying that each Believer has carte blanche and we are never ever to speak into their lives. In fact there are numerous places in his writings where he says the exact opposite!
Friends, this post-modern thinking, this subversive idea that, as Believers, we can't really know the truth, and make any deiscernments based on that truth, is the most dangerous thing facing the Church today. It is the crafty and evil work of the enemy, convincing an entire generation of Christians that we can't really know the truth, that right and wrong are subjective, and it's never our place to exhort or admonish other Believers. Because what it has created is an entire generation of Christians who Believe that pretty how much however they are living is okay because they are on their own journey and travelling at their own pace and God is totally chill with that. And if you don't know what the dangerous problem with this thinking is, we here at Dwell In Us Richly have been blogging on it for months. Because it's insidious and terrifying, and it's tearing down Christ's precious Bride from the inside out.
Friends, the only remedy for the spiritual sickness that has beset the Church is getting into the Bible and studying God's revealed words for ourselves. Because it's easy for someone with an agenda to cherry-pick a verse or passage and twist it to mean what they want. And it's easy for us to read or listen to what they're preaching and say, "Hm. I guess that sounds true enough,' and walk away thinking we know what's up.I often have people tell me, "Christianity is not all about the Bible, it's all about relationship with God." And this is true to a point, but think of it this way. Your relationship with God is like a big mansion full of rooms and cabinets and drawers, but most of them are locked. The Bible is the master key to open them. Now, if you want to, you can sort of guess or ponder or wait for a revelation to tell you what's in all these rooms and cabinets and drawers, or you could listen to other people tell you what they think is in them. Or you could just stick that key in all those locks and discover and study and marvel at what's inside for yourself. And until you do, you're just fooling yourself, robbing yourself of the fullness and richness that's waiting for you, and possibly leading others astray in your wake.
God revealed His Word to us for a reason. It is not just a book or a tool, it's an essential part of our faith.
And like always, I invite conversation. I know for some of you this is quite personal, but the truth must be sought. It must be defended. It must.
by David
We follow a number of blogs. We read most just because it is interesting to see what people are thinking, (no matter how goofy or outrageous) and go on to the next, based on the Great Apostle's pattern and instruction ( ICorinthians 5:12) of leaving all those outside the professing Church to God to judge. But those who profess Christianity we are responsible to deal with. For example, I read a blog by a guy who is a very thoughtful hedonist. He thinks the highest good for people is to experience pleasure. The thinking of most Americans is thoroughly hedonistic, of course, but they don't know it. This man, however, understands precisely what he believes, and he makes a good argument for the continued development of opioid psychotropic drugs, so people could just feel good all the time, without all the unpleasant side effects of the drugs now available. I disagree, but he's not my problem.
I'm saying the Church is commanded to discipline itself. This idea is obvious and inarguable throughout the New Testament Scriptures. So if people (particularly teachers) who call themselves Christians live a lifestyle which the Bible says is completely unacceptable in the Church, or if they teach ideas obviously and dangerously wrong, that is my problem. Yours, too, Brothers and Sisters, whether or not you have the courage to accept the responsibility.
One of the blogs we follow, mainly because the blogger is known to us, so it is of particular interest, is FEED YOUR STRENGTH. I would point your attention to the August 10 edition. Usually the subject of the blog is self-help or love yourself, and such. But the blogger, while identifying herself as an Evangelical Christian (at another time a "recovering Evangelical") is enthralled with the teachings of progressive, postmodern, heretical Christian teachers, notably Richard Rohr and Rob Bell, and regularly passes along their thinking for her readers.
A favorite theme in FEED YOUR STRENGTH is that it is wrong for any of us as God's people to disapprove or make a judgment regarding the beliefs or behaviors of another person. This position is wrong-headed and not Biblical on its face (please review our earlier writing on this subject), and now FEED YOUR STRENGTH is helping us make our point by carrying the argument to ridiculous extremes. Out of the Biblical record of David and Bathsheba and subsequent events she draws the conclusion that since God can make beauty from ashes (Isaiah 61:3), one must never disapprove of another's behavior. Let's think about that. . . and make some current comparisons.
Firstly, a personal story comes to mind which is not so current. I was once called to a pastoral position in a church which had been devastated by the behavior of the former pastor. The man had used his position of influence over the church families to find victims for his pedophilia. In fact, the remaining group was so traumatized they swore to one another to keep it all a secret, and I didn't even know what I was getting into. Now, when the story did come to light, what should my counsel have been to those families of young, injured boys? Now, now, we musn't disapprove?
Today, on a larger scale, human trafficking for the sex trades is a business estimated at 9.5 billion dollars in the USA alone, victimizing an estimated 300,000 children. Many professing Christians are involved in this tragedy. Should we disapprove, approve or stand aloof?
Otherwise. During 2010, about 1.6 million children ages 0 to 11 and 1.2 million children ages 12 to 17 lived in a household in which at least one member age 12 or older was the victim of violent crime during the year. Approve, disapprove or stand aloof?
I'm sitting a the keyboard this morning shaking my head at the absurdity of the position I'm arguing against. At the evil of it. Also a little in awe at how brilliantly insidious the Enemy is.
Let me draw your attention all the way back to David and Bathsheba. Let's pick up the story in 2 Samuel 12. In response to David's sinful behavior, did God approve, disapprove or stand aloof? In fact He sent His prophet Nathan to deliver one of the most intense judgments in recorded history. Recorded for US.We are asked in FEED YOUR STRENGTH to buy the twisted logic that since God does indeed bring beauty out of ashes for his people, therefore we should not disapprove of evil. I disagree with that teaching, and in doing so I stand firmly in the spirit of the Word of God, and with the clear revelation everywhere in the Book.
Since most of you reading these words have grown up in the American postmodern, postChristian culture, where nothing is considered absolutely wrong or absolutely right, where the idea that we must never judge the morality of anything sounds okay, I feel I must labor to simplify and clarify what I am trying to tell you. Let's try some questions.
In your group which calls itself Christian, which of the following is disapproved? abortion? casual sex? robbing the minimart? beating up gays? sleeping with your neighbor's wife? abandoning your family for another, more desirable mate? It would seem that, according to the logic espoused by FEED YOUR STRENGTH, none of these practices should be disapproved.
According to God and His Revelation (the Bible), all these practices, common and considered cool in American pop culture, ARE disapproved and condemned. When a Christian sister or brother blunders into one of these practices, it is our responsibility to pull him out.
Because It Needs To Be Said, pt. 2
by Libby
My life is very full; i have a two-month old and an almost-3-year-old, both rather high maintenance, and I really have time for little else. Even now the little one clings to my chest like a spider monkey while i try to type around him on a tiny laptop balanced on a Boppi, and I can smell that the the big one needs a diaper change, and all the diapers are still in the washing machine. But I feel strongly that yesterday's FEED YOUR STRENGTH needs to be answered, as it is running in the same vein as her August 10th post, and is dangerously misleading.
Let's start with a little background. When Paul sat down to pen the letters that are included in the Bible today, he wasn't sitting down with the intent to "write the Bible." He was writing to people in local churches, during a certain time and who were dealing with certain issues. He was writing to exhort and encourage individuals and church bodies that needed specific exhortation and encouragement. Thus, it is important to take into account the historical context of each letter and consider to whom Paul was writing and what issues they may have been struggling with at the time.
And here's another thing: when someone uses a few verses from a chapter to try to make a point, it is our responsibility to crack open the Bible and read the verses preceding and succeeding, probably just read the whole chapter, and ideally read the whole book. Because there are plenty of verses that, when taken out of context, can be used to say pretty much anything one might want them to say.
So let's briefly examine Romans 14, and see if we can't suss out where Paul was coming from and what he meant when he exhorted the Romans not to judge each other.
Since its inception, the Mosaic Law was the Jewish people's only connection to God. They had to follow rules upon rules in order to have any hope of salvation, they studied and memorized and rigidly lived by the Torah, and disobedience was unthinkable. Jesus' life, death, and resurrection changed everything. Everything. And this was extremely difficult for your average Jew to accept. We're talking about trying to cast aside thousands of years of indoctrination, and their entire way of life. And as time passed, some believers were able to throw off the old law and live easily in the new freedom that Christ's blood afforded them, and others not so much. Some really struggled with things like working on the Sabbath or eating meat that, under the old law, would be considered unclean. Understandable, I'd say.
So in Roman church at this time, this was causing some strife. Christians were being uppity and judgmental with each other about these things; and the truth of it is, these things were pretty much inconsequential. The Roman Christians were hurting each other and causing divisions over things that didn't matter anymore. Here Paul tells them (and us) that their hearts' intent and their desire to honor and glorify God are what really matter, and that they shouldn't be hateful and judgmental about things that hold no import in the Kingdom of God.
So to put this idea into a more current context, consider this: any number of Believers come out of a tradition that tells them that worship is best achieved through singing hymns, and contemporary worship music is lacivious and unholy. And on the other side are the Believers who say that hymns are archaic and boring, and contemporary worship music is more relevant and therefore more conducive for effective worship for Christians of today. And both sides feel very strongly about this, going so far as to condemn fellow Believers that don't see things they way that they do. But what Paul is basically saying here is, "It's all good, don't let this kind of thing tear you guys apart." And he's also saying that if contemporary music makes you feel lacivious and unholy, by all means don't listen to it! But don't condemn those who worship best when they can jump and dance and wave their hands in the air. Because it's all good if your heart is clean and God is glorified.
In verse 14, Paul says. "Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God." He is referrring to the inconsequential issues. But do you hear what he is NOT saying? He is NOT saying, "Whoever gets drunk at the bar every weekend does so for the Lord." He is NOT saying, "Whoever has sex with someone he or she is not married to does so to the Lord." He is not saying that each Believer has carte blanche and we are never ever to speak into their lives. In fact there are numerous places in his writings where he says the exact opposite!
Friends, this post-modern thinking, this subversive idea that, as Believers, we can't really know the truth, and make any deiscernments based on that truth, is the most dangerous thing facing the Church today. It is the crafty and evil work of the enemy, convincing an entire generation of Christians that we can't really know the truth, that right and wrong are subjective, and it's never our place to exhort or admonish other Believers. Because what it has created is an entire generation of Christians who Believe that pretty how much however they are living is okay because they are on their own journey and travelling at their own pace and God is totally chill with that. And if you don't know what the dangerous problem with this thinking is, we here at Dwell In Us Richly have been blogging on it for months. Because it's insidious and terrifying, and it's tearing down Christ's precious Bride from the inside out.
Friends, the only remedy for the spiritual sickness that has beset the Church is getting into the Bible and studying God's revealed words for ourselves. Because it's easy for someone with an agenda to cherry-pick a verse or passage and twist it to mean what they want. And it's easy for us to read or listen to what they're preaching and say, "Hm. I guess that sounds true enough,' and walk away thinking we know what's up.I often have people tell me, "Christianity is not all about the Bible, it's all about relationship with God." And this is true to a point, but think of it this way. Your relationship with God is like a big mansion full of rooms and cabinets and drawers, but most of them are locked. The Bible is the master key to open them. Now, if you want to, you can sort of guess or ponder or wait for a revelation to tell you what's in all these rooms and cabinets and drawers, or you could listen to other people tell you what they think is in them. Or you could just stick that key in all those locks and discover and study and marvel at what's inside for yourself. And until you do, you're just fooling yourself, robbing yourself of the fullness and richness that's waiting for you, and possibly leading others astray in your wake.
God revealed His Word to us for a reason. It is not just a book or a tool, it's an essential part of our faith.
And like always, I invite conversation. I know for some of you this is quite personal, but the truth must be sought. It must be defended. It must.
Thoughtful and true. Thanks my family for being willing to put this out there, I love you......B
ReplyDeleteFrom Sarah Bennett:
ReplyDelete"I find it quite interesting that Libby makes reference to people picking and choosing what to believe and twisting others' words because that has been done here as well. I, admittedly, do not read all of the feed your strength blogs, but after reading this blog I decided to go back and read her August 10 blog. Nowhere in it do I see that being sinful is okay and we should just accept it and move on. In fact, I see more the opposite. What it would appear to me that she is saying Is that we should not judge sinners that have overcome their sin and have transformed. She is saying that we all sin, but the beauty in it is, that we can be transformed and live a life fully to Christ because of His forgiveness. For example, my uncle used to be an alcoholic. It is not something he's proud of, but I'm sure he would not change it about himself. Before his drinking days he did not know Christ. Once he repented of his sins and became sober, he went to seminary. Now he is sober and faithfully works in his church helping others. Should we judge him because of the days he used to know, or be thankful to God that he turned something ugly and made it beautiful? I believe that is what feed your strength is saying. I teach my students that all the time. That the bad things that happen in our life shape us, make us who we are today, and allow us to make a difference. I believe that is what is most important, not the idea of twisting words and trying to belittle others."
Sarah:
ReplyDeleteIt is exciting to me that someone cared enough to even think about what we wrote! About football or gun control Americans can get passionate. About obeying Jesus and the Word of God not so much. So I am happy to answer your concerns. We are on board with you with the idea that God changes people, and that transformation often comes on the heels of brokenness. We celebrate that God makes beauty out of ashes. We have been following these blogs and asking for clarification on several critical issues (and getting no response) for many months. In the 8/10 blog, note that the euphemism for deliberate sin is "misspent circumstances," then read the text more carefully. She is saying that if we judgmental people were looking on in David and Bathsheba's day, we would wrongly be disapproving of David's "misspent circumstances." Admittedly she is cryptic, and we think purposely so. If she were to clearly proclaim where she stands, many people at the Grove would be dismayed. But you did have me worried, Sarah, that I may have misunderstood Debi's blog. So I asked two bright people (completely outside this debate), who had not read our response, to read the 8/10 David thing, and their reading reinforced my first take. And let's be real. If you had written the blog, and someone completely misinterpereted you, would you not say "Whoa! That's not what I meant at all!?" You are right, too, Sarah, that Matthew 18 lays out a path for us in this situation.
DN