Forward, by Libby:
I know that it must seem like the attention we give this matter is excessive. And I understand how uncomfortable this is for some people, because it feels too personal. Because the person whose teaching we are examining and refuting is someone I know and used to count as a friend, it may seem to those looking on like a personal vendetta. It is not. Once and for all, we want to straighten that out.
There is nothing personal about this, and we here at DIUR have no grudge or vendetta against any one person. We only follow the Biblical mandate to test the spirits of church leaders, and if their teaching proves false, to face it head-on (see this previous post, and this one, for more on identifying and dealing with false teachers).
Believe me friends, there have been many times that I prayed this particular burden be taken from me; I have little joy in the doing of it. But I'm afraid that if we were to stop now, because the pressure to do so was so much, or because we were causing such discomfort or anxiety to people we care about, or because of the massive blow our reputations have taken because of it, we would be doing a grave disservice to the One who called us. We must see it through, and it is with a heart for obedience that we do so.
By David:
We feel it necessary, since we have heard stories around our community, and since Ms. White continues to spin this thing as a personal "tiff," to provide our local readers with an overview so you can judge for yourselves the accuracy of the stories you have read and heard.
I know that it must seem like the attention we give this matter is excessive. And I understand how uncomfortable this is for some people, because it feels too personal. Because the person whose teaching we are examining and refuting is someone I know and used to count as a friend, it may seem to those looking on like a personal vendetta. It is not. Once and for all, we want to straighten that out.
There is nothing personal about this, and we here at DIUR have no grudge or vendetta against any one person. We only follow the Biblical mandate to test the spirits of church leaders, and if their teaching proves false, to face it head-on (see this previous post, and this one, for more on identifying and dealing with false teachers).
Believe me friends, there have been many times that I prayed this particular burden be taken from me; I have little joy in the doing of it. But I'm afraid that if we were to stop now, because the pressure to do so was so much, or because we were causing such discomfort or anxiety to people we care about, or because of the massive blow our reputations have taken because of it, we would be doing a grave disservice to the One who called us. We must see it through, and it is with a heart for obedience that we do so.
By David:
We feel it necessary, since we have heard stories around our community, and since Ms. White continues to spin this thing as a personal "tiff," to provide our local readers with an overview so you can judge for yourselves the accuracy of the stories you have read and heard.
It has happened that, over the past six months or so, readers (including us) of the blog FEED YOUR STRENGTH have been challenging the teachings of the blogger, Debi White. Ms. White has never answered direct, pointed questions about her teaching, choosing instead to close her blog to comments. Forgive me this observation, but that move suggests she sees herself more as an oracle than a blogger, and above being questioned. While never responding to us, Debi did continue to make swipes at us in her blog, and continues to this day to frame the situation as a personal grudge or misunderstanding. That is simply not the case. We are trying to hold up Debi White's teaching to the light of the Scripture so that others can see it for what it is. That is it. We have never cast any aspersions on her character, lifestyle, history. . .not at all. In fact, I finally pointed out just this in an email I wrote her on August 24, to which, as usual, she did not respond. But we open that letter to you. We want you to understand and judge the situation for yourself.
Thanks again for reading. Our hope is that we can encourage you to commit yourself to knowing God and His ways better, particularly by reading and studying His Word, and letting His Spirit illuminate your mind. The text of my email to Debi follows.
8/24/2013
Debi:
I was struck a couple days ago with this realization. While Libby and I and others have challenged your teaching/writing pointedly over the past six months (you have been asked to clarify your belief about Jesus being the only Lord, about universalism, about whether one should admonish re: the flagrant sin of another professing believer), you have never deigned to respond directly or clearly at all. You have responded, however, in your way, by closing your blog to comments, and making, in writing, "back-handed" swipes at our motivations and character.
Do you see? While we are trying to "turn the light onto" your teaching, you seem to be, apparently, hoping the light will fade. . . then making swipes at our character and motivation.
You have written that we have "mistreated you," that we have "talked negatively about you to others," that we "have callous hearts," that we have a "haughtily perceived superiority," that we "are unwilling to let God work," that we "lie."
For the record, we purposed at the outset to make the challenges to your teaching nonpersonal. Speaking for myself (David), I know precious little about your lifestyle or history. But regarding my lifestyle and history: in my memory, no one has ever made the kind of accusations against me you have. And I can say with certainty that I have never had a conversation about you outside my nuclear family. But I'm not really troubled by your slander. It goes with the territory.
So, a heads-up. We are not acting whimsically. Not reactionary. just doing what our Lord has called on us to do. On to the next step.
David Nitz
David,
ReplyDeleteI find so many flaws in this writing. First of all, you claim to have never had conversations about Debi outside of your family, but you write about her on a REGULAR basis... Even calling her and her blog out by name. Your blog, sir, is a conversation that you have set up amongst many. Therefore, I already find much of what you say to have lost credibility because you have lied about that very thing.
Second, Debi was forced to shut down her comments, not because she didn't want to answer these things, but because no one should have to read such hateful and slanderous comments. If you were to calmly and personally sit down and talk to Debi, I believe you would find her to be a woman who will profess Christ as her Lord and Savior without any hesitation.
Third, I know for a fact that Debi has tried to make amends with Libby, because Libby shared it with us all. However, it would appear that instead of discussion and forgiveness, as the Bible calls us to do, you continue to attack a fellow believer.
I am ashamed. I have always been both proud and humbled to call myself a Christian and a child of God. Proud to belong to a Savior who turned the other cheek and consistently showed love and forgiveness. Proud to be a part of a family of believers who desire to be a reflection of God. Today I am ashamed. Ashamed that In a Blog that claims to work for the Lord, someone would blatantly and seemingly maliciously attack another believer. What you do is not done in the name of Christ, do not be fooled. If it were done in the name of Christ, it would be done in a way that would not upset Christ. This, sir, hurts. It is an open attack on someone in the guise of helpful criticism.
As a believer in Christ and the power of prayer, I will pray for you and Libby. I will pray that God will open your hearts, eyes, and ears. I will pray that you will understand that what you are doing is not furthering God's kingdom, it is making a fool of believers.
I, sir, am ashamed that people may think I am following the same ideals as you. I do not. I do not follow a God who allows for his type of hatred. I follow a God of love, mercy, and forgiveness. One who loved and wanted to forgive so much that He was willing to die on a Cross.
Again, Sarah, Thank You for your response. We welcome comments one and all; your response suggests what readers are thinking and provides the opportunity to clarify what I am trying to explain. First, we are writing about her TEACHING. Her T E A C H I N G! secondly, when she did finally concede and via FB make a statement of faith, it was meager indeed, skirting every issue we have asked her to clarify over the past six months. Thirdly, ashamed? We should all be ashamed, Sarah. But what is shameful is the new normal for American "Christ-Followers." We have largely caved in to the philosophies of the world we live in. We dare not call sin sin. To quote our friend Debi, those behaviors which are in rebellion against God or contrary to His moral Law are to be understood simply as "misspent circumstances." Sarah, you define your God as one of "love, mercy and forgiveness." Is that it? Really? I point you to the Revelation chapters 2 and 3, where the real, risen Jesus sends messages to 7 real churches in Asia Minor around the year 90AD. Heads up. He is not always "soothing" like Debi's jesus.
DeleteClearly you do not read ALL of your comments, because I stated earlier today that Jesus was not solely here to bring peace and happiness... but He certainly did not bring hatred. So I will disregard your final few sentences as you not reading everything, much how I feel you do with Debi's blog.
DeleteSecond, in regards to misspent circumstances, what do you believe that to mean? I see it as its literal definition, that a situation or circumstance presented itself, and you did not do the wise thing... the situation was squandered, or misspent. I believe that is sin. We are given the option to get crazy drunk with our friends or go home to our family. If you choose to go to the bar, you have misspent that circumstance. You can be faithful to your spouse, or have that affair. If you choose the affair, you have misspent that circumstance. You will NEVER get that same circumstance/event again, and you have squandered the opportunity to do the right thing. It was misspent, but not lost. Christ died on a cross to give us an opportunity to create anew from those misspent circumstances. A chance to grow, move away, do the right thing, and teach others to do the same.
Thirdly, why must Debi answer for her faith to YOU? We will all one day answer to Christ for all that we have said and done. Are you going to stand before Christ and waste that time talking about Debi? I certainly hope not, just as I hope Debi will speak for herself before the Lord. If she is a believer and a true follower, Christ will know her heart and welcome her with open arms. If she has skewed his words and perversed them as you say, then He will also know and will turn her away. Her blood is on her hands. What gives you the supreme authority to demand that she give an account of her faith to you?
I do call sin sin. For example, judgment and hostility in this manner, I believe is sin. I believe that we are to be a reflection of God and His Word within this world. I believe that when people see our actions, they should know we are children of God. Do you really believe that Christ would want you to keep kicking and kicking repeatedly? Do you really think that's what He would do? No. I believe He would ultimately say, your blood is on your hands. You will not repent, I know you not. Christ would walk away from a fight. You however, do not. Christ would know that not everyone will agree on everything, so allow people to make stupid choices and suffer the consequences. It seems as though you believe we all should agree on everything. Interestingly enough, I posed the following question to sixty 12-13 year olds today: D you believe the world would be a better place if everyone would agree on everything? Their answers may astound you. Those that said no said that there would be no originality and creativity. No individuality. We would be robots with no real purpose. That complete agreement all the time would ultimately lead to destruction of a people. Those that said it would be great said, "everyone would always get everything they want! They would always get their desires!" Funny how 7th graders see that total agreement is not a good idea; it leads to destruction and greed.
Debi may never agree with you, and that's fine. She is responsible for herself. You are responsible for yourself. You have done your job. Now, look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are truly being a reflection of God.
Thanks again, Sarah. Got to admit, some of your logic left me scratching my head. Maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand. But on a personal note, I want to share that I do take seriously whatever criticisms people make of me. I can recall clearly several times when someone who had been observing my life and work has sat me down and spoken the Word of God to me. Sometimes I can process that experience and decide that it is way off base. When it is a right admonition, however, it cuts sharp and deep. And in answer to you question above, Yes, we who call ourselves Christians are answerable to one another! We can support that idea for you at length from the Scriptures if need be. The fact that your friend can be so clearly, poignantly, and repeatedly called to submit to God, and not respond at all, is not a good sign. Wolf.
DeleteSarah, you wrote as if though Jesus Christ never pointed out the false teachings of the Pharisees or the blunt direct words He spoke to them. Or what about the Apostle Paul calling specific people out on their wrong deceptive doctrines. The Bible and our Lord Jesus isn't some pansy hippie homeboy who just wants peace. He said He came to put fathers against their sons and mothers against their daughters. He said He did not come to bring peace.
ReplyDeleteI never said he didn't correct, He just didn't hate. I know He was not a peace and happiness all the time type of guy. I also know that the Bible tells us to try to rebuke, once or twice. If the person does not heed your warning, then you are to forget them, you have tried, their blood is on their hands now. Do I think Debi has done something horribly wrong? No. But you seem to, so you have tried to rebuke as the Bible says to. She did not listen. Instead of forgetting about it, you continue to attack.. You are out for blood, kicking someone continuously when it isn't needed, much how the Devil attacks. I truly believe that this is not God calling you to do this, but more the Devil trying to attack a person, a church, and a community. Jesus did not come SOLELY to bring peace, but He did come to bring peace. He certainly did not come to bring hatred and hurt others though.
ReplyDeleteSarah, Jesus said Himself that He did not come to bring peace. But on this thing about time to let it go- I agree with you, Sarah. It is time to let it go! Debi hears but does not hear, and she sees but does not see. And also, everyone at the Grove knows of the apostasy's being taught and allowed to go there. So, yes, the Grove has been warned. It is up to the individual to make up their own mind on whom they will serve. It is the individual's responsibility to choose to pick up their own Bible and see if this stuff lines up that Libby and her daddy are broadcasting, are true or not. From this point forward, it only stirs up strife. Time to let it go, Dave and Libby. Take my advice Dave and Libby, You did what Scripture commanded you to do, now it is time to lay it at the Savior's feet. Rest. Remember, that if they will not hear the Word of God, what makes you think they will hear you? The Apostle Paul spoke of this same thing in many places, saying that the people in the end time will not be able to endure sound doctrine themselves and will draw preachers and teachers in to themselves that will tickle their ears. At the Grove that is what you have. They are probably lovers of Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer. Upon reading this they will ask, " What is wrong with Osteen or Meyer?" Showing in their own minds what doctrine that they love, and that would not be the doctrine that the Lord Jesus taught.- Melodie Barton
ReplyDeleteThanks for your input, Melodie. We have heard you. We had a good conversation last night about what everyone concerned with this discussion is really thinking. Why are people responding, or passive, or avoiding, or whatever. It left me with two thoughts. One is the strange desire people have to make god in the image they desire, and worship that: like the AA idea of submitting yourself to the "god of your understanding." Americans variously create and follow a Neo-Nazi jesus, or a Republican jesus, or a hippie jesus or a hipster jesus. But He is who He is and has revealed Himself to us. Also was reminded of Keith Green, a leader/musician to whom God gave a good ministry about 30 years ago. In a recording we have, he paused in the middle of a song about Jesus at the judgment telling people "Depart from me I never knew you," with the observation that he recognized as true believers people who were "bananas for Jesus." We look around at our world, particularly the American South, where most everyone claims to be spiritual and a follower of Jesus, and wonder. Which jesus?
ReplyDeleteSometimes I think that banging my head on a brick wall would have more impact on people than trying teach them. To so explicitly and carefully explain what we are about, and why we are doing what we are doing; to so painstakingly lay out all the Biblical precedence for every word we speak and every action we take, and STILL have someone post comments about how full of hate we are, and how God wouldn't like us to be so mean and judgmental, and how THEIR God is just NICE.... *bangs head against wall*
ReplyDeleteSarah every single thing you are ranting about has already been addressed in our blog in the last 6 months, and it seems like an exercise in futility to try and explain it again, because you are either incapable of or unwilling to take the time to comprehend it.
Your supposition that we are upset because we think everyone should agree on everything is just ..silly. In the years that i knew Debi, she and I amicably disagreed on many things- maybe even most things- and yet managed to stay friends in spite of it. Maybe even because of it. There are plenty of things that Christians can disagree on, but THIS is not one of them. Once a so-called fellow Believer starts touting an ideology that will have people marching down a path straight to hell (Debi has said more than once that she believes that everyone - not just followers of Christ, but everyone - might be saved and go to Heaven in the end. This is patently untrue and Scripturally indefensible, which i guess is why we can never get her to defend it), it's time to stop amicably disagreeing and start calling into account. And then calling out. Your ire is entirely misplaced, and I can only surmise from it that you have spent very little time reading and studying what the Scriptures say about admonishing, exhorting, judgement, heresy, apostasy, or false teaching.
So, madam, before you pen another diatribe about what kind of horrible people we are and how your brand of Jesus wouldn't like our behavior, why don't you open up your Bible and study up on what it says we should do about heretics.
Then tell me who should be ashamed.
From Debi White, posted on my FB wall:
ReplyDeleteLibby, you write in your most recent blog comment the following, "Debi has said more than once that she believes that everyone - not just followers of Christ, but everyone - might be saved and go to Heaven in the end." This is absolutely false. I have said very clearly that I believe the only relationship that returns us to fellowship with the Living God is the one that comes through faith in Jesus. Please paint my words accurately.
So where is the appropriate account of her words that you also promised to print for your readers on Facebook? I can not wait to see your miss truths this time. The victim mentality does not suit you very well!! Thank Jesus God hasn't called me to damn his children, a burden you clearly feel has been thrust on you and we are so blessed that we will only give account for ourselves when we stand before the father because I would not be excited to paint God a picture of hate and a belief that he had failed in his plan and sell it as a life of dedicated to him. Yikes!!!
ReplyDeleteYikes is right. Let's just write dumb stuff that doesn't make sense.
DeleteOkay, I'm sorry for the delay, life sometimes gets busy around here, with a baby and a preschooler. But I am anxious to get underway, because this is something that we have been trying to achieve for months: you clarifying where you stand on these vital issues. So instead of "painting" your words any certain way, I'll just copy and paste them and address them idea by idea.
ReplyDeleteI can see now, after re-reading some of your more troubling teachings, how you feel comfortable saying "I never said that." You have a clever way of dancing around vital issues without ever clearly addressing them. You insinuate much without ever stating anything, and any requests for clarification are met with silence. So what we need, in order to be done with all of this and move on (believe me, we are just as anxious for that day as you are), are some clear statements from you regarding life, death, and the final judgment. Ready? Let's go.
You, from Conversing with A Stick of Dynamite: day 2:
"I have heard "every knee should bow, every tongue confess" for as long as I've heard about Jesus. We are taught (and thus teach) that joining God in fellowship from now through eternity has as its prerequisite this acknowledgment of Jesus. What we often don't reconcile is the every person--every person--part of that. Don't we have a time problem and a location problem? Does it ever get too late to acknowledge? A time problem.
From what place(s) will every person do this? A location problem."
*What i hear you /insinuating/ here is that every person will bow to Jesus’ Lordship and thus come to full fellowship with God as one of His people. That is an unwarranted loading of the statement that every knee will bow, and inconsistent with the total teaching of the Scriptures. It is true that eventually every living creature will call Christ lord, but for most of them, it'll be after they have lived a life in rebellion against Him and died in their sins; it will be too late for them, a point I will address in a minute.
You, from Conversing with A Stick of Dynamite: day 3
"I hope death is not the last chance to get into right standing with God for life. In fact, there is compelling teaching that traces Scripture as a whole to support this idea."
*What teaching?? What Scripture?? Show me ANYWHERE in the bible where it even WHISPERS that dead people have a chance to respond to God's offer of grace. Because I can fill pages with texts that clearly say otherwise (-Heb 9:28, "..people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.." Matt 8:24 "..for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” -Rev 20:15 "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." -Matt 25:36 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" etc., etc., etc).
You, from Conversing with A Stick of Dynamite: day 7
"We don't have to dress up that Truth .. with superiority claims that some are in and some are out (Jesus died for all) .."
*Yes, Jesus did die for all, but not everyone accepts the gift of His grace. Most people today reject Jesus, just as they did in His generation. That means that some ARE in and some ARE out; the concept of insiders and outsiders is constant in the New Testament. It is not a "superiority claim" that I declare that I am "in." In fact it's quite the opposite. It's with humility and gratitude that I accept His gift of grace.
You, In a comment on my timeline:
"I, for one, hope Rob Bell's speculation that death might not be our last chance to bow to Christ as our Savior is right."
*Nope.
From Debi White, left once again on my FB:
ReplyDelete"Libby, I'm resting my certainty on Christ crucified. That is as far as our conversation needs to go. I do not owe you what you seem to demand from me. Let's leave it there. For more, see "Trusting the Motive" at feedyourstrength.com"
Well finally. It should be obvious to all thoughtful readers that, now that a few gaps have been blown in your smokescreen, you really have no real beliefs or convictions about the most basic teachings of the Christian Faith. Now many or most of you following this blog have never before been exposed to the Bible teaching (and there is lots of explicit stuff there) about false teachers. Even if you have thought about the subject, what do think a false teacher looks like? Well, the real historical Jesus tells us that they may look just like your average church-person (in Jesus' words, a wolf in sheep's clothing.) They may appear in a cheap toupee, shiny three-piece suit and patent leather loafers, or they may be a middle-aged woman in capri pants and sandals.
ReplyDeleteThere is so much more we want to tell you, so much more to be thought through on this subject. But we are taking the advice of our counsellors, and letting it go. And as our Lord often said to people listening to His teaching, "If you have ears to hear, then listen up." Every single one of you who calls himself a Believer has the responsibility to sort out the truths presented to you and act in obedience to God. The church leaders involved here, again according to the Bible, will be called into account more strictly (James 3).