I'm astounded sometimes at the foolishness of people who write for the "progressive church" audience. (I'm purposely using the term "foolish" in the Biblical sense of choosing contrary to God's ways. Cf. the Proverbs.)
There is concerted writing and teaching toward the conclusion that God doesn't really mind if we live immorally. This bs teaching is done with full knowledge that the Bible, from Genesis to the Revelation, constantly calls God's people to be holy. I don't think I need to multiply Bible references here; if you belong to God, He has already taught you this; you know this to be true.
Believer, when God called you to follow Him, he "called you with a holy calling" and began to change your heart (mind, emotions and will). If, beforehand, you were into pornography and sexual immorality, God called you to follow His ways, stay within His boundaries, view other men and women as brothers and sisters (not as meat, or a possible sexual conquest). We live in a thoroughly debauched culture, in which people are shocked at nothing. Nevertheless, here and now, Jesus call us to cleanness. Light in darkness. Sadly, I must report to you (in the event no one ever told you) that many groups of people in America who meet together on Sundays and call themselves Christ-followers (or whatever is the fad this year) live lifestyles not substantially, morally-speaking, different from the lifestyles common to the lost world around them. The Apostle Paul wrote that these days would come, so we shouldn't be surprised. But he also challenges us to be alert, aware and to hold true in these last days.
But back to my original theme, let me share the ideas of a couple blogs I've read lately to illustrate my point. A couple months ago a local pastor was commending and forwarding a blog written by another "progressive" pastor titled something like "In Celebration of Yoga Pants." In his blog this oh-so-cool dude wrote that one of his favorite pasttimes is hanging out in his local Starbucks to ogle the women customers in yoga pants. Wink wink, smirk smirk. In another blog recently, the writer (who identifies herself as a 60ish woman), relates with approval the following story about her inlaws. A supposedly happily-married woman gives her husband permission to have a fantasy girlfriend, one at a time. The blogger writes "Men are apparently wired to notice women, cute celebrity women at that, so why not join the game, give it a for-fun voice and create one less avenue for tension?" I feel that no one among God's people should even take the question seriously, much less feel it needs to be answered; but there the question stands in all its foolishness. Firstly, fellow-blogger, I should not be the one to tell you this. Your mother should have taught you that men do not view attractive women as "cute." In the real world of men, kittens are cute. A bad joke may be sarcastically cute. Men do not watch a shapely derriere in yoga pants because it is cute. Men do not pay special attention to a particular actress or to their hot next-door neighbor because she is cute. It is lust. To label it otherwise is demonic. God says so.
One of the greatest challenges facing Christian men is to keep a clear conscience. To this end, historically, serious followers of Jesus have even quit their homelands to escape a morally corrupt culture. Hoping that their children would fare better in an environment less hostile to their faith and calling.Let's just call sin sin. Don't make light of it. Don't minimize it. Jesus died so that we can be free from the bondage of sin. I heard a story about a young, graduating student who was being questioned about his beliefs and convictions who was asked "What do you think about sin?" He answered "I'm against it." Me, too.
An aferthought
by Libby
When my dad sent me this post to review and add my afterthought, at first, I didn't feel that I had anything to say; he pretty much covered it, as far as I could tell. But as I reread it today in preparation to post it, I can't help but feel so discouraged. Anyone that knows me knows that I spend a lot lot of time on the offensive: I fight for the Gospel of Christ, I fight for His bride, I fight against this treacherous progressive rubbish that is swallowing my brothers and sisters whole. I put on the full armor of God and I charge into battle. It's what I do. But friends, I still have my days. I still have my days where I'd just like to shrug off His armor, sink to the ground, hang my head, and allow the discouragement to wash over me. And this particular post ..that it's even necessary ..has me feeling like this.
I think there are a few reasons why this topic has me so disheartened. It's all just so worldly, and people don't see it. That emotional infidelity could in any way be construed by any right-headed Christian as a wise way for couples to avoid tension is just so mind-blowingly worldly. I'm literally ...I think the word to describe me is "aghast," that an older Christian woman, whom the Bible tells us we young women are to turn to for counsel, would try to tell us that it's no big deal for our husbands to be emotionally unfaithful to us. My heart just sinks. Who can we as young women turn to when this insidious trash is what the elder women in our church spew at us?
As a woman of faith, who does her best to model herself after the Proverbs 31 woman, to be a constant helpmeet, a trusted friend and lover, I absolutely deserve my husband's fidelity, both emotional and physical. Because do you know what your husband is saying to you when he says that he would like to pretend that Reese Witherspoon is his girlfriend? He's saying that you are not enough. He's saying that God's design for two people whom He has joined together in marriage (a relationship that He specifically designed to reflect that of His Son with His Church-bride) is not enough. And that's not okay.
Because the fact of the matter is folks, we are ALL wired to live contrary to God's will. All of us. Does that mean we just give up? Give in to our sinful natures in order to "create less avenues for tension"?? Gees, of course not! Being a follower of Christ is hard work! It's a daily struggle that only His grace gets us through, but like anything else, the more we practice, the easier it gets. The more a man submits his natural lustful desires to Christ, the more he practices keeping a clean heart and being grateful to and for the wife God has given him, the easier it will be for him to turn his eyes and his heart away from any woman, real or imaginary, who might tempt him. And sisters? You are doing him no favors by sheepishly giving him permission to gallivant through a fantasy world with a supermodel on each arm. Because you are in fact giving him permission to sin against you and against his Creator. There are powerful words in the Scripture about lust, the sanctity of marriage, and how your husband is to treat you, and laying in bed next to you at night and fantasizing about "dating" celebrities is not part of His plan .
Brothers and sisters, the marriage union is perhaps the most beautiful earthly thing God has designed for us, and it takes two avid partners, ardently throwing their whole selves into it, for it to weather the storms of this broken world and blossom into the personally fulfilling and God-honoring institution it is designed to be. It must be purposefully, jealously, fiercely guarded. Do NOT let the Enemy in, whether he be in the form of a hot neighbor, an ex-girlfriend, general discontent, or an imaginary Reese Witherspoon. Don't rob yourselves of God's perfect design for your marriage by playing worldly games, because a happy, healthy, God-centered marriage is more absolutely beautiful and fulfilling than any imaginary tryst could ever be.
Truth.
ReplyDeleteFrom Debi White
ReplyDeleteblogger at Feed Your Strength
Libby...I want everyone in your readership to know my heart. I'm wondering, if in the spirit of being family as Christ-followers, we might work toward calling a truce. While writing the two recent posts about family, through the analogy of the movie, Raising Helen, I often pictured how great it would be if we resumed a friendship. You were the very person I pictured. I know you feel I am leading people astray. Here is the best documentation of my beliefs I know to give: I am completely in love with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I believe Jesus is the only way to God and to heaven. If the email from Emily DeFazio was, in fact, from one of your group who have "challenged [my] teaching/writing pointedly over the last six months" (your dad's email words to me), then please tell her yes, I do think God speaks--through the Holy Spirit. I try to keep that communication open at all times through prayer and listening. Tell Emily (or if your group does not represent Emily, I will write her asking her to converse by phone) that I congratulate her on being in a book study on Love Wins. It is quite a challenging book. I, for one, hope Rob Bell's speculation that death might not be our last chance to bow to Christ as our Savior is right. He MAKES CLEAR we can only speculate and MAKES CLEAR that Jesus is the only way to God and heaven. How awesome if there is a someday when God wins all of his children back to himself. What a day that would be! Hoping that could be true does not negate the truth that Jesus is the only way back to God. It simply admits that we do not know all there is to know about God's timetable. I can't get out of my head that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. Years and years ago, I was overcome with a passion for learning how to bless God's heart. That is the singular backdrop to my life journey. Anytime I am leading others, that is my prayer--that my words inspire people to live to bless God's heart. Perhaps you feel the need to rescue people from any and all leadership at The Grove Church (mine included)--I can assure you that for over 15 years we have said out loud over and over that we only want God's agenda for that church. Since we pray continually for him to take us over, I am confident that he straightens our curves whenever need be. For now, we are continuing to find that teaching biblical truth and serving the community are our best means through which to communicate the need for and love of Christ. If you feel people need to be rescued from our endeavors, I would invite you to meet with Jeff and the elders. Your family and our church family exist on a spiritual level as one family--all in love with Jesus. We can disagree on authors, respectfully present our best thinking, and at the end of the day, still disagree. But one thing I know: we agree that Jesus is who he says he is. Based on the idea of spiritual family and the truth of Jesus, can we take a step toward reconciliation? I would like that.
I am wondering if this is the article about yoga pants that you refer to above: http://ethoshift.com/ethoshift-1/2013/1/20/purpose-driven-yoga-pants
ReplyDeleteI think it only fair to your readers that they are able to read the article in its original context, rather than a twisted version of what you think it is about. No where in this article does the author mention going to Starbucks to "ogle" women. What he does say is:" I'll often write at a local coffee shop, and the number of women that wear purpose-driven yoga pants combined with the number of men that take notice is staggering. (And they're not teenagers in youth group anymore.)" He goes on to describe these "purpose driven yoga pants" which is a very accurate description of what they are.
Have you ever gotten dressed, looked in the mirror and wondered what the people you encounter will think about how you look? I would imagine this is a moment that most women have at some point in the day, everyday.
Have you ever worn something that someone else would consider provocative, or something that would cause men other than your husband to have lustful thoughts about you?
Have you ever watched a movie or TV show and found one of the actors/actresses attractive, does this mean you were being emotionally unfaithful to your spouse? I would agree that it is not a good idea to immerse ourselves into a fantasy world because we can miss what we have right in front of us, but at what point does a light hearted joke turn into something more? Do you know this couple that has this "arrangement" (if you can call it that). Could it be that Reese Witherspoon portrays characteristics similar to those of his wife and that is part of where the attraction lies? I don't know that answer.
I am not sure when Christianity became equal to perfection, and when going to someone and as you have said "loving on them where they are" became "progressive". Jesus died for ALL our sins, past, present, future. Following Jesus is a journey, we will stumble, fall, run backwards, crawl forward all in an effort to know Him better. If WE don't go to the least and the lost how are WE doing our duty of sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, they aren't always going to come to us, WE have to go out and find them where they are, love them where they are and show them through our actions, teach them through His words, and lead them to Him. How can that be done if we continually portray perfection, instead of showing them who we really are?
My apologies, Anon., for taking so long to reply. I hope you're still checking back with us from time to time. In answer to your first several questions, Yes, I have done all those things. But that doesn't make them ok. The fact that these worries and concerns and sins are common to mankind do not make them ok. Just because I can RELATE doesn't mean I CONDONE.
DeleteWhen I started this blog, the first thing I did was tell my own story (http://dwellinusrichly.blogspot.com/2013/03/my-name-is-libby-and-im-alcoholic.html), so that my readers would know who I was and where I was coming from: not from a place of perfection and self-righteous judgement, but from a place of teaching, encouragement, and exhortation. And from there I specifically purposed NOT to make it personal. I write about what the Bible says, NOT about how well or poorly I personally obey it.
I think we know that you and I share a very different definition of what it means to love people. I firmly believe in loving people where they are, but I also believe that once a person claims Christ, they don't get to stay where they are anymore, they are to leave their old selves, the "darkness," behind and move towards the light. And Believers need each other to achieve that. The pursuit of Christ is a corporate one, and that means that, when someone is joyful, we rejoice with them, when they are down, we lift them up, when they are broken, we help them pick up the pieces, and when they're travelling the wrong path, we help correct their course. We are called to love everybody, so of course that means we love them where they are. But if we just just let them stay where they are, is that love? There is more to love than just acceptance.
I am not an advocate of Christian perfectionism, and obviously none of us are ever really going to reach perfection while still in these bodies. But we are absolutely supposed to strive for it! If we're supposed to be like Jesus, then perfection is indeed our aim. No,we will never achieve it, but that doesn't mean that we stop trying. You're never going to the fastest runner in the world, but that doesn't stop you from training.
Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus.
Dear Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteThanks for reading! Thanks for responding! Thanks for correcting me on the yoga pants thing. I read that blog months ago, and the mood of the writing stuck in my mind (but the obscure point he was aiming at was forgotten). You may have heard it said, Anonymous, that "I don't know all the words but the tune is very familiar." I did in fact misrepresent his theme (please forgive me one and all), but I didn't miss his subtext of mockery. For the past couple generations, conservative American leaders have been trying to protect church kids from getting messed up in harmful, illicit sexual relationships. Some methods were wrong-headed, and certainly not cool. Nevertheless, I don't question their motivations; those leaders tried to hold the line valiantly. I, too, came up through fundamentalist churches and schools, and have reacted. . . but let's grow up and see the thing for what it is. Many current preachers/leaders would have nothing to say if they couldn't whine about being stunted by their fundamentalist upbringing. Again, Thank You for responding.
Oh, one more thing. There is a counter on our blog, so we know it is read. We also know from the grapevine that more than a few local readers share our concerns. Why do you suppose no one has the courage to enter the discussion?
And one more. . . You were agitated enough to write, defending a blogger from Nigeria about yoga pants, but never before when we've exposed local teaching supporting universalism, antinomianism, etc. . . What's up with that?
DN
Sorry I took so long to respond, I very rarely have two hands free these days. But now that I'm here, let's see of we can get some things cleared up. I'll start with Debi. "Anonymous," I will respond to you as soon as I can.
ReplyDeleteFirst, as long as you keep touting heretical teachings there will be no “truce." I will fight the good fight against the insidious post-modern church paradigm til the day I die. I don't *think* you're leading people astray, I know you are, and I will continue to speak out against your teaching as long as you continue to teach publicly (ie: Feed Your Strength, and from the pulpit of the Grove Church), and as long as you continue to have influence over the people in this community.
Second, I have no group or camp, nor do I know an Emily DeFazio. I do know a number of people who share my concerns about the nature of your teaching, but they are unwilling to dissent in the group over which you hold sway, for fear of the backlash. Considering my experience, I can't say I blame them.
ReplyDeleteThird, the teachings of the post-moderns you tout seem to have as their purpose to muddy up the spiritual waters and convince seekers that truth is unknowable. And I'm here to MAKE IT CLEAR that there is no speculation necessary, that we CAN KNOW the truth about the end times, final judgment, etc. God recorded all we need to know to understand the truth of His basic plan for humankind in His Word, so all of your mentors’ speculation serves no purpose but to confuse and mislead. I mean, do you understand that your teaching renders basic Biblical morality, a personal relationship with Jesus here on earth, and basically the entire Bible, entirely meaningless? What's the point of the Bible, of all of Jesus' teaching, of the letters that Paul and John and Peter labored over to edify and encourage all the local churches, if in fact none of it really matters? If everyone can actually just deny truth and morality and the person of Christ until they die and come face-to-face with Him, and THEN, when they come into His presence, where His glory and power are undeniable (at which time every knee shall bow and every tongue confess), well THEN they can be saved? Utter. Nonsense.
Fourth, let's make one thing clear, Debi, I have never mentioned the leadership at the Grove (apart from my concern that you occasionally preach there), and my concern over it is no greater than my concerns over the Church at large; I have my worries, and I do wish some precepts like obedience, holy living, exhortation, accountability, etc were given more focus (and for my readers I would like to note that I sat down with you, Debi, and the pastor's wife to personally discuss these issues). But here's the truth, Debi, are you ready? It's you. The problem I have is not with the Grove Church, it's with you, and your teaching. So let's not try and spread it around like "Hey look guys, Libby is against our whole group and all of our leaders!" Because I'm not. I'm against you. And I would in fact like to rescue any and all people over which you have influence, including the leadership at the Grove. Did I say that clearly enough? You have tried to spin this situation, like it is a personal spat between us, perhaps in order to marshal support for yourself. That is not the case. We are directly challenging your heresies; we have been questioning and challenging for months. You have not deigned to directly respond at all until now.
Fifth, I did not realize that you speak for the Grove Church and all of its endeavors. Are they aware of this? Regardless, I am not addressing the Grove Church, I am addressing YOU. The teaching I take issue with is yours, and as you teach publicly, I will address you publicly. Do I have to drive to Rob Bell's church and meet with his elders before refuting his heresy? I do not, and nor yours. However, should anyone from the Grove Church - elders, leaders, or congregants - wish to sit down and talk about anything, we are willing to do so. Happy to, actually, because truth-seeking, peeling back the layers and getting at the heart of the matter, that's pretty much what we're about here at Dwell In Us Richly.
I have been following this discussion for several months now. I have not wanted to jump into the comments for several reasons. I have enjoyed pleasant friendships with people on both sides. I have people I care for very much on both sides and many who feel caught in the middle. This kind of thing is very time consuming to me and I often struggle to get the basics done in life, so likely you can understand how it might be a difficult feat to put my heart here. Not to mention, my thoughts and feelings about these issues are complicated and take a while for me to express. Nevertheless, I find it increasingly difficult to say nothing. My heart is stirred. I feel like I need to express my opinion. I believe that all Christians should base their lives on the Bible. Let’s face it, there’s a whole world of contrary-to-what-the-Bible-says ideas out there competing for our belief. We need to go to the Bible to see what IT says and put our faith there. I am concerned because I see evidence that some people are beginning to believe things that are different than what the Bible teaches. It seems that some are drifting away from the Bible, and are reaching to believe things that are more comfortable. That is a very natural human desire. The Bible is NOT full of fun, easy stuff. I think it’s very dangerous to embrace the parts that are easy and ignore the parts that are hard. I can relate to having that urge at times, in certain situations. I, however, encourage Christians with all of my heart to cling to the Bible.
ReplyDeleteIn this discussion it has been stated that possibly EVERYONE will go to heaven. There is a comment made above in prior comments that says, “How awesome if there is a someday when God wins all of his children back to himself. What a day that would be!” I think statements like that one and others I've read lately speak volumes to readers who might not read the Bible for themselves. The expression, “You are the only Bible some people will ever read” comes to mind. It is definitely each person’s choice to believe the Bible, or to go looking for answers different than those the Bible offers. Here is an example of how some of the things being talked about are exactly opposite what the Bible says:
When it is presented that possibly, somehow, everyone might make it to heaven, according to the Bible, there’s no way that that can be true. Revelation 21:7-8 says, “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” In Matthew Jesus is telling his disciples what will happen after he comes in his glory. He tells what will happen to the righteous. And then he tells what will happen to the others. Matthew 25:41 and 46, “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” Revelation 20:15 says, “And whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Mark 9:43-48 is a passage that has really helped and encouraged me to let go of things that keep me in sin. In it Jesus says, “And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” II Thessalonians 1:8-9 explains what will happen when Jesus will be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”. Matthew 10:28 says “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” And hell is talked about in many other places. So in order to believe that everyone might possibly go to heaven, we have to utterly DISBELIEVE the Bible. The huge danger in believing this or teaching it to others is that believing it might be the factor that dictates whether someone goes to heaven or hell. If they believe everyone could possibly make it, they may cling to that and do nothing to reconcile themselves to God through Jesus Christ. If you’re uncomfortable with the reality of hell, then you’re uncomfortable with the Bible…… because it talks about hell a lot. Don’t you think it’s very dangerous to happily receive half of God’s message and to completely ignore the rest?
ReplyDeleteThe verse about the fact that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord has been mentioned as possibly leading someone to think that everyone will make it to heaven. Maybe even Satan, I think some might be questioning. Well, Satan’s knee WILL bow and he WILL confess that Jesus is Lord. He will be forced to right before he is thrown forever into the lake of fire, just as many other people who haven’t been born again through Jesus will be. Revelation 20:10 says, “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
ReplyDeleteAnother thing that has me thinking lately is this: should we take it lightly and joke about it/give it our approval if we know someone who has given their spouse permission “to have one "celebrity girlfriend" at a time.” Should we enjoy “a good laugh picturing his preoccupation with his imaginary love interest.” Should we jest at it or give it a “for-fun voice.” I don’t think it pleases God when we laugh at or have fun with something that he despises. I think he would rather we take seriously what he takes seriously and despise what he despises. This bothers me because according to the Bible, there’s no way it can be okay for a man to have an emotional affair in his mind with someone who is not his wife. Jesus said that if a man looks at a woman to lust her, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart. And 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 says that adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. That should not be laughed at, poked fun at, or approved in any way by a Christian person. It is something that, if not truly repented of, (can’t continue to do it willingly if there’s real repentance as repentance means a turning away from sin) can result in a person going to hell, according to the 1 Corinthians passage above. The devil wants us to be desensitized to sin and to laugh it off. It is absolutely not something to be laughed at or to be taken lightly.
Another issue: I believe we are commanded in scripture to encourage one another to turn from sin and to follow Jesus. If we see a brother or sister in Christ going down a road that the Bible says not the go down, it is absolutely appropriate to encourage them to go God’s way. Not that ANY of us are perfect ourselves (I am SO not), and certainly not that I can exhort someone but will never need it myself (I need it plenty of times.) II Timothy 3:16 says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” James 5:20 says, “Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” No, when a Christian sees the sin of another Christian they should not look down on that person and consider themselves to be higher up. But they absolutely should encourage their brother/ sister to know the Word and to not just know it but to do it. James 1:22 says, “But be ye doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
ReplyDeleteTo me, it’s very dangerous to believe and to lead others to believe people may be able to get right with God AFTER death. Just think, if that is NOT true, and someone causes someone else to believe it is, that person might delay making Jesus the Lord of their life and truly following him because they think they have all the time in the world, even after death. If someone reaches death without having truly repented of their sins and having believed on Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and having been born again through him, according to the Bible, they are going to hell. So it seems to be a really dangerous thing to put into someone’s mind otherwise because, first, it is not in agreement with the Word of God, and second, it could actually create a situation that results in someone going to hell. Hebrews 9:27 says, “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement.” It seems like if God wanted us to believe there were going to be opportunities to get right with him after that, he would have clearly said so. And why would he have used so many verses commanding us to repent of our sins and hold true to the end if it really didn’t matter because we could still get right with him after that? Jesus said in John 8:24, “I said therefore unto you that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” Why would he even say that with such seriousness if it didn’t even matter if someone died without believing on him because they could get right after that anyway? Revelation 20:11-15 tells what will happen. “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it: and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every many according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
4 sentences up, "and they were judged every man," not every many. Typo.
DeleteWhen I first began to believe the Bible and gave my heart to God, I was attending a nondenominational Bible study in Asheville once a week. I went solely to see what the Bible said for myself, so I could make an “educated decision” on what I thought about it, and so I could get a woman who was often trying to witness to me off my back. Not long after that I felt encouraged by God to read the Bible – all the way through, a couple of times. Then I participated in a Bible study of the book of Revelation at my church. So though I definitely don’t know it all, I had read enough to know that some of these beliefs were not supported by the Bible. We ALL need to take the Word of God in for ourselves daily, lest we listen to teaching that is contrary to the Word of God and begin to believe it ourselves. And then, lest we, believing it ourselves, begin to teach it to others, thus leading them astray. If we do not believe God about the future, about this life, and about himself as He presents these things in the Bible, perhaps we are making up a God that suits us better to serve. One that doesn’t resemble the true God at all.
ReplyDeleteThis is not fun to me, but I wrote this because I feel convicted in my heart to state what I have read in the Bible about these issues. The verse that convinced me to give my opinion was Jude 1:3. It says, “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” I humbly come to you because I want to be obedient when I feel God wants me to do something. Maybe if I speak my heart someone will be led toward the Word, and if I don’t, someone will not be born again that would have been. Really, we all have choices. You can choose to search and believe the Bible, or to believe absolutely anything and everything else. You can choose to read the Bible, or to be spoon fed and blindly believe others’ opinions of what they believe to be the truth. And you can stand for something or you can fall for anything. Joshua 24:15, “And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” With his help and his constant carrying, we will.
As someone who knows Debi personally, I wanted to say first that her love for Christ has been a huge encouragement to me in my growth as I get to know God more. She is someone who genuinely loves God and loves people, and additionally I've found her beliefs to be scripturally sound. Much of is being said about her is twisted or out of context. Never has she encouraged me or anyone else to depart from scripture or to be in a relationship where lust is present. I often say that truth without love doesn't matter much. if we continue to argue and pick scripture apart without Godly love as our lens, we are going to miss the point, forget what's important, and become prone to focusing energy on attacking fellow believers rather than pouring out love to everyone we meet. Truth is important (and yes, Debi is one who strives to find scriptural truth), but love is more valuable and a necessary component of our search. without it, we are just arguing blindly.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comment Lauren. I too know Debi personally, and there have been many times in my life that I have found her encouraging as well. Unfortunately, that doesn't negate the fact that much her teaching is faulty and unbiblical. I don't know you, and as such I hate to be harsh, but if you are keeping up-to-date with Feed Your Strength, and you're still saying that you find all of her beliefs to be Scripturally sound, then that would lead me to believe that you aren't very well-versed in Scripture. I, my father, and the previous commenter have pointed out dozens of ways that her beliefs are not Scripturally sound, and unless you effectively and Biblically refute what we have written, your point is moot.
DeleteI agree with you, that love and truth go hand-in-hand, but being extremely kind and caring whilst leading someone astray is not love at all. You say that truth without love doesn't matter, but i posit that love without truth doesn't matter, either. There is no point in loving someone if you never share the truth with them.
Here at Dwell In Us Richly, we are "pouring out love" on our community by refuting false teaching where we see it and exhorting our readers to immerse themselves in the Word and arm themselves with the full armor of God, because Christianity is not a playground, it's a battlefield. If you run around "pouring love on people" without every imparting real truth to them, you are loving them straight into hell.
And what you call picking apart the Scripture, we call earnestly seeking truth. We're not arguing over head covering or skirts v. pants. We are talking about the most basic precepts of our faith. The very foundation. If you're not sure what I'm referring to, I'd be happy to link you to the FYS posts which have caused us so much consternation.
Please, don't take my word for it, nor Debi's either. Get in the Bible and study it all for yourself, and see how God stirs your heart.
Dear Lauren,
DeleteAll of the things that I wrote were written in love. To me there is nothing more loving than pointing someone to the Word of God. Pointing someone to God's Word equals pointing that person to God. I know Debi personally as well and have for many years. I love her, or I wouldn't have responded when I saw that she was believing or wanting to believe some things that I know the Bible says aren't true. And I love many of her readers, which is why I commented here, so I could express my heart to hopefully many at once. What is more loving, showing someone that something they believe and are putting out there is contrary to what God has told us in the Bible, or seeing that fact and remaining silent to avoid causing any discomfort? Sometimes what is most loving is not what is most comfortable.
Rather than uproot what is growing to examine whether it has value, why not examine the fruits? a good tree can only produce good fruit and a bad tree cannot produce it. I challenge you to take the time to watch the fruit of the lives and structures you are challenging and watch for the fruit of the Spirit (since you know scripture, I won't go to the trouble of listing them). BIblical truth lived out also produces unity and a positive change in the lives surrounding the one who lives it. Often in my pride, I assume Gods role as the uprooter of all evil things. I forget that He blesses those who bear fruit and destroys anything that does not. examine the fruit and then allow God to grow was is His own work or destroy what is not.
ReplyDeleteWe appreciate that you are thinking with us, Lauren. It is an unusual person who is serious enough about the Faith to make the effort to understand. . .Now about your questions. First, we have challenged only Debi's teachings, carefully avoiding "structures" and personal lives. Are you saying Debi is growing or what? The "fruit of the Spirit" is Paul's metaphor for the godly character which must be progressively evident in one God has saved (made alive to Him). One obvious change God makes is that, while lost, people are in rebellion against God. Once saved, His Spirit urges us to obey him. So all our lives thereafter, He shows us thinking and habits which are not yet in subjection to him. We grow. It is the Word of God which informs this process. Any real, serious believer will be constantly looking to God's Word, with a heart wanting to be taught by Him. Unquestionably in subjection to the Word of God. Re: your last thought, Jesus taught a lot about final judgment, and about current judgment. Let's blog about that someday. Re:your challenge, we've been watching for about five years.
ReplyDeleteDo you really believe that it comes down to who is "serious about the faith enough to understand"? We were all lost at one point. None of us sought God out....Christ came to save the broken, not just the elite who are just so good that they took the time to study. The real problem with this entire argument is that you aren't responding to what I'm saying. everything you say is based on your own presuppositions about the situation and how well versed in scripture you believe me to be. I just told you that if Debi is indeed producing bad fruit its Gods perogative to take care of that. Jesus did call people out on occasion but he did not focus the time and energy that you spend tearing down a singular person. His time was spent on reaching the lost.
ReplyDeleteLauren,
DeleteMy intention with commenting here is to say, "Hey guys! Heads up! Some of the things you are believing or are tempted to believe are the opposite of what the Bible says. So please don't believe them." I believe God calls us to exhort one another, not to just sit back and see how he takes care of it, when a brother or sister is being turned down a road that is wrong. Yes, Jesus said we will know the tree by the fruit it brings forth. That, he said, is how we can know false prophets. I'd say promoting ideas that are very unbiblical is pretty bad fruit. I would attribute that to Rob Bell, and I encourage my brothers and sisters not to believe such things. When I was stirred to comment, I tried very hard to study what the Word had to say about how to handle it. I, in my flesh, would rather never deal with any of this. I'd rather keep to myself and let the pieces fall where they may. BUT, are we called to keep to ourselves and let the pieces fall where they may?
Thanks again for staying with the deal, Lauren. YES! It is an issue of who is really thoughtful, serious, and obedient to the Lord! Would you care to make the argument that American Christians should be characterized as "serious?" Second argument. Agreed that Jesus saves the broken: from darkness to light. Not darkness to more darkness. Third argument. God IS taking care of that. Lauren, it would be a big mistake to surmise from Jesus parable (Matthew 7) that we should not put teachers to the test. To the contrary! That context is all about false teachers. Also from that context: wolves are often disguised as sheep. Finally, I read your "elite" remark with a smile. People who know me well know a middle-child peacemaker who purposed long ago not to try to gain influence by presenting himself via his credentials. Am I to be convicted for studying God's Word and trying to obey it? I'm still smiling.
ReplyDeleteJesus, Peter, Paul, and Jude ALL spoke and wrote about false teaching and what we as Believers are to do about it. Nowhere do they say, "When you come across false teaching, expend only a small amount of energy to refute it. If you don't succeed right away, give up."
ReplyDeleteI have noticed of late an undercurrent of disdain running through the modern church toward serious students of the Bible. It's as though earnestly studying God's Word immediately turns you into a Pharisee in people's minds. How did we get here?
Our ardent study of the Word of God does not make us elitists, it makes us obedient.
Y'all forgot about John and his writing about false teachers. The "apostle of love" is maybe the most devastating prophet about wolves.
ReplyDeleteSee Revelation2 2:18 and following.